There is no requirement for 3 minutes at a check -- many people think you have to give 3 minutes before a dead track.--- not in the rules. It doesn't make sense to stand there watching a hole for 3 minutes. Many judges need to use a dead track more often to keep the pack controlled. At a check, if some dogs start cruising, call a dead track, get the pack together and start over for a new rabbit. Now lets ruffle afew feathers ---- What is the score of a PERFECT run ??? 40 POINTS ---- one strike, one jump and no checks ----- checks are a mistake!!!!!! Most points at hunts come from checks. We have a negative based scoring system. Make a mistake and you create a chance to score points ----- but it has to be a big enough mistake !!! If the hound corrects its mistake in 8 or 9 seconds, that hound is too good and gets no points. The hounds that are smoothly keeping the run going are not getting any score. I have tried to get check time shortened to 5 seconds. We need some way of defining a check, but I think 5 seconds is long enough. We don't want to get like the beagle hunts where any thing is a check, even a turn with no breakdown. Nice high scores, but not a good system. Until somebody comes up with a system for rewarding good running, we will continue with the current method of scoring, but there are some problems. I saw a judge give a check for one bark. another judge watched a dog run the line for about 50 feet and not give a check.

Dean..Just to keep you going some your last paragraph..You used the word somebody!!!Why somebody..I'm sure you might have a good suggestion as the 5 second check...What do you think we can do to award the smooth running hound? Can we incorparate a rule to do that? I think it's a Great idea....

I have to say thanks to Gary and Eric both, They let me ask alot of questions at the world when we were on cast. I have not judged any since i only recently took my test. so to say i am still learning is an understatement. Dean you have me curious. do you mean the check is open after 5 seconds or the track is dead in that amount of time? if the check is open in that time wouldnt that cause more checks and make the system worse. a tight mouthed dog gould get checks all dday long and never loose the track. I think it is great you said something , this is how things get discussed and changes made if they are needed. How do other associations handle checks? akc for instance if it differs from ours?

lets try a different aspect of judging. what everybodies opinion on dogs that follow the cast around for the entire hunt, when there is a 15 minute rule?

checks
UKC Hunting beagle: if after one minute of breakdown the dogs have not recovered the check each dog is minused 20 points. The dog that recovers the check, if they do ,gets back their minus but no positive points are scored.

ouch my dogs draw enough minus the way it is now, I never would finish a hunt. but that is an interesting concept, thanks Jim

the system of a minus for all dogs might work, but we would have to changs the 3 minus and out rule. Also, they would be minused for the rabbit going to ground and the judge not seeing the hole The check would be open after 5 seconds --- yes, more score, but going to the hounds that can better recover from a mistake -- now they don't have a chance -- yes the judges will miss more checks than now by not being able to see who did what. The 15 minute rule applies to dogs that don't hunt. If the hound is moving with the pack, but not contributing to the run, he should not be scratched. He just gets no score. Dogs that just disappear should be scratched -- we run by a pack format (except 2nd series) and if a hound will not work with the pack, that hound is not part of the hunt. The hunt is with the pack and solo dogs deserve to be scratched. Without putting in more of judges opinion, I have not been able to think of a system that would reward good smooth running. I do think the AKC SPO system might work for the Bassets. And we might be able to hire qualified judges.

Did frank agree with dean ...did i read that right?

rules
You can written rule yourself to death trying to write a rule for every situation. The judge should remain the most important factor here with their knowledge of hounds and the sport. The Bird dog trials have existed for over a hundred years with almost no written rules but relying on judges knowledge and discretion. When you obligate a judge to strict written rules the best dog will win the cast less than 50 percent of the time.

There is no requirement for 3 minutes at a check -- many people think you have to give 3 minutes before a dead track.--- not in the rules. Dean you are right. In some circumstances I don't give 3 minutes. For example all the dogs leave the check area or a dog starts another track and calls the dogs over. (of course that dog will get a minus) but I usually run the track from the 1st check. From what I know of it I also think the SPO rules are a good system overall. We may need to make a few choice modifications. I can't see any benefit to changing the the check time to 5 seconds, That would be rewarding more points for the breakdown. Marc I can't believe I saw that either.

I can't believe it either,Must have bumped my head..Dean and I agree on more stuff then we lead on.. we just don't make it public knowledge!! But here goes some disagreement..AKC Qualified Judges????I'm not real sure about that one..it also has a slight overtone of AHBA judges not being up to par!!! I will also agee with the last statement Jim Rogers has just made...In my eyes truer words have yet to be spoken!!!

5 seconds for grands and champs... 10 for opens ...but I think they score too many points with checks. A dog can win on checks and never get a rabbit up. If you do not get the race started you dont have a race. I know an anchor keeps the race going cleaner but I need a hunting dog that keep the race going ..more needs to be place on the hunting ability oof the dogs All dogs that continue to bark in the check area while the check is open should get a minus No 50 yard checks ...i'm not sure how to ensure that does not happen ...but i never saw a rabbit jump more than 10 feet. I dont think the dogs that are not hunting should be scratched. I would give them 3 minutes to prove they are hunting everytime the hunt starts or restarts after a dead track or timeout. It will give the late starters a chance and penalize the ones that quit. If the dog finishes the cast with minus points, they do not get points for the hunt and will not run in a runoff ...no matter what place they finish in and yes I agree with Jim ...unfortunalty the dogs that win.. run to suite the rules and probably are not the best rabbit dogs... Eric ...I'm glad you saw that too

What about giving more points for a strike or jump. Maybe 25 for a strike, 20 for a jump, 10 for a check. Jim I agree. but the written rule does settle many disagreements before they get out of hand. Our rules now have a lot of judgement calls already like, what is a line or what is a check area. I remember you telling me that judges got pulled off their horses at some of those trials. That may be beacuse of the lack of concrete rules.

horses
You missed the point. The horses were all about big money and livelehood as a pro handler. We all see what we want to see whether we have experienced another way or not. Accept the fact that it is only a game. It is in a sense a sport which carries a lot of definitions including "One who accepts rules or difficult situations well"

You are correct it is a game ...but the game is supposed to be helping us achieve our goal ..."Our goal is to continue the work of improving this proud ancient breed of hunting hounds. " The following might not sit well with some but... Therefore why not make the game harder. That way when you have a wall full of trophies, have hound of the year, win the "world hunt" or breed grand champion blah blah blah to grand champion Blah blah and advertise the pups ...it actually means something In reality its just the best dog out of the 10 dogs that happened to show up that day.. Why reward the medicor...make them work to prove they are worthy